Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | RSS
In this episode Mark interviews Paul Austin Ardoin about his new book OUTLINING FOR NOVELISTS WHO DON’T OUTLINE.
Prior to the interview Mark shares a person update and a word from this episode’s sponsors.
This episode is sponsored by Author Nation, being held in Las Vegas Nov 13 through 14, 2026
Learn more about Author Nation and register at AuthorNation.live.
In the interview Mark and Paul talk about:
- Paul’s previous non-fiction book for writers FROM ZERO TO FOUR FIGURES
- Mark’s offer of gifting 3 copies of FROM ZERO TO FOUR FIGURES by buying them from Paul and/or a local bookshop for listeners based on a random selection of comments for this episode
- Paul’s new book OUTLINING FOR NOVELISTS WHO DON’T OUTLINE
- How Paul wrote his first four mystery novels without using an outline
- The method Paul used to adapt strategies from outlining processes that a pantser could leverage within their own writing without having to sacrifice their strengths as a “discovery writer”
- How the book doesn’t talk down to pansters/discovery writers, but embraces and understands that perspective
- Discovering that all of his different novels that he pants were all exactly 27 chapters
- What a time-loop mystery is, the comparison to movies like Groundhog Day and Paul’s example with his novel A TIME FOR MURDER
- The mini flashlights that can help when a writer is “writing into the dark”
- Keeping the enjoyable element of discovery writing while having a plot concept to fall back upon
- Advice Paul would like more authors to know
- How Paul’s love for Milwaukee really comes through in his books
- And more…
After the interview Mark reflects on a few things that came up in the conversation and reminds listeners of the opportunity to win a free copy of Paul’s previous book.
Images Mark mentions he’d share:
Atticus (top) and Meredith (bottom) on the book chair in Mark’s home office
Pictures of Indy, our 13-year-old Golden on his last couple of camping trips this summer.
Shots of the home office construction of the new bookshelf extension (Liz recently added an additional three shelves that now go right to the wall and is creating a built-in sitting desk against the burgundy wall)
Links of Interest:
- Paul Austin Ardoin (Website)
- Paul’s Book: Outlining for Novelists Who Don’t Outline
- Paul’s Book: A Time for Murder
- EP 309 – From Zero to Four Figures with Paul Austin Ardoin
- Manuscript Report (Mark’s affiliate link – use MARK10 to save 10%)
- Buy Mark a Coffee
- Patreon for Stark Reflections
- Mark’s YouTube channel
- ElevenLabs (AI Voice Generation – Affiliate link)
- Mark’s Stark Reflections on Writing & Publishing Newsletter (Signup)
- Stark Realities Book
- An Author’s Guide to Working With Bookstores and Libraries
- The Relaxed Author
- Publishing Pitfalls for Authors
- Wide for the Win
- Ghost Stories of the Great Lakes
- Mark’s Canadian Werewolf Books
- The Canadian Mounted: A Trivia Guide to Planes, Trains and Automobiles
- Yippee Ki-Yay Motherf*cker: A Trivia Guide to Die Hard
- Merry Christmas! Shitter Was Full!: A Trivia Guide to National Lampoon’s Christmas Vacation
- I Think It’s A Sign That The Pun Also Rises
Paul Austin Ardoin is the USA TODAY bestselling author of The Fenway Stevenson Mysteries, The Woodhead & Becker Mysteries, and the author guides From Zero to Four Figures and Outlining for Novelists Who Don’t Outline. A California native, Paul holds a B.A. in creative writing from the University of California, Santa Barbara and an MBA in Marketing from the University of Phoenix. He lives in the Milwaukee area, where he enjoyed Milwaukee’s surprisingly excellent symphony orchestra and unsurprisingly excellent fried cheese curds.
The introductory, end, and bumper music for this podcast (“Laser Groove”) was composed and produced by Kevin MacLeod of www.incompetech.com and is Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
I’m so sorry to hear about Indy, Mark. I had to go through something similar last year with my 17 year old terrier cross, Dizzy. I’d pushed her around in a dog pram for the last several years, and she’d led a happy life, but, like you, we knew when it was time. It was terribly, terribly tough, and a different kind of grief.
And then, two months later, we were walking in the fields behind us and bumped into a woman taking a very nervous little dog for a walk – turned out she was a foster mum for an organisation that rescues dogs from the streets of Cyprus (I’m in the UK). A few weeks later, Belle was a part of our family and helping us cope with our grief.
I’m not a remotely spiritual or religious person, but meeting that woman on that day was a lovely moment of serendipity.
I’ve bought an ebook copy of Paul’s book. I’m a dyed in the wool pantser, and hate outlining as if I know the story in advance, I don’t want to write it – but I’m always looking for ways to improve my process.
Thanks for the interview and sending best wishes for your healing,
Kev Partner
Looking forward to this episode and more – subscribed. Found this through the Wide for the Win FB group (funny plotter vs pantser meme btw – I feel like I’m somewhere in between… a skidoo maybe 🤔)
Inspired by Kevin, I decided to learn to dictate. It was a difficult process, but my commute to work was one hour each way. It gave me a way to write when I couldn’t write, and I learned. Over the course of nine weeks, and entirely out of order, I pantsed a mystery: “Murder on the Aldrin Express”. Captain Nick Aames interviewed suspects in a death, each telling stories of their time with the dead man. We also got stories of Tracy’s past with Chief Carver, Nick’s second in command.
I stitched it together and sent it off to Analog. They bought it. Gardner reprinted it in Year’s Best. I think it worked.
And readers loved Nick Aames. Friends demanded more Nick stories. I aim to please! So I started writing “Honeymoon on the Aldrin Express”, the story of Carver and Tracy’s wedding. But I was pantsing! I was one scene in, and suddenly it diverted into a flashback about why Nick hated weddings, a tragic romance that almost derailed his career. By the end, we learned that he still hasn’t recovered. I necessarily changed the name to “Brigas Nunca Mais” (a thematically crucial song from Paula Morelenbaum), and Analog published it.
Readers wanted still more, and I saw the potential for a fixup novel. So I started dictating what I thought would be a third short story: “Mutiny on the Aldrin Express”, chronologically after “Brigas”. Inspector General Park Yerim investigates mutiny allegations against Nick Aames, but faces strong pushback from his crew, verging on mutiny. She struggles with this, and with a headache, so she sees the Aldrin’s doctor, Connie Baldwin. She asks why the doctor is so loyal to Nick, and…
Baldwin goes into a chapter-length flashback, “Racing to Mars”. That was published in Analog, and eventually it was chosen in the Analytical Laboratory readers’ choice awards as best novelette of the year.
But that was in the future. I didn’t know it yet. All I knew was that Park’s story picked up again after Baldwin’s…
And suddenly I had my “outline”. I wasn’t writing a short story, I was writing Citizen Kane in space. Every odd-numbered chapter would be Park conducting her investigation, dealing with pressures from the admiralty, the corporations, and the crew. Every even-numbered chapter would be a crew member telling a flashback of their history with Nick and why they’re so loyal. “Murder” and “Brigas” would become flashbacks in this sequence. Eventually the flashbacks would catch up to the point where the alleged mutiny happened; and Park would have the pieces to make her decision. That was my outline: Park-Flashback-Park-Flashback-Park-Flashback… until Park made her decision. I had no idea what the pieces would be.
It didn’t work out exactly like that. I still had two more flashbacks to discover: Park’s own flashback, in which she’s assigned the case; and a third-party flashback to Nick’s youth and the family circumstances that drove him to space. The book is a mystery, but nontraditional. It’s not a whodunnit, it’s a whydunnit: Why are these people doing these things?
Along the way, I discovered an unwritten and unbroken rule of Nick Aames stories: Nick is never the protagonist. He’s a force of nature, a rocky promontory against whom protagonists crash. He either breaks them or changes them. We almost never see Nick’s point of view, we see how others respond to him. You might call that one of Paul’s “bumpers” in the bowling alley. It keeps me on track for what makes a Nick Aames story.
It seemed to work. That book has nearly 7,000 Amazon reviews, average 4.4. It was the number one science fiction ebook on Amazon for a month.
The sequel had a very deliberate outline. I threw it out 10% in, and I pantsed the rest of what Publishers Weekly called an “intricately plotted” mystery. Was it influenced by the outline? Definitely. But by the time I finished the first part, Nick and his wife had swapped roles, and it became a whole different book.
Mark, I am so sorry for your loss. Losing a fur friend is never easy. Their love is so unconditional and pure. I will keep you in my thoughts.
This was an excellent podcast episode! And it was very exciting listening to you both and thinking, “Hey! I know these people!” I was at Paul’s recent book launch for “A Fatal Ingredient” and I might need to pick up his new book as well. I’m also a discovery writer at heart, but I’ve learned there’s a lot of useful skills I can learn from planners, too.
Thank you both for a great listen!
It looks like I have another multi-reflection post to make today.
Dad was a dog person and we lost at least 3 dogs while I was growing up. My wife, Catherine, is a cat person and after 40 years together we have buried a number of cats. For the last 30 years we have also worked with local rabbit rescues to help forever home many of the little land sharks, many of which have crossed the rainbow bridge to the great clover patch in the sky under our care. No matter how expected a passing may be, there’s always that moment at the end when the heart does a little flip for them.
In the great plotter vs pantser debate I’ve have come to think of these as not distinct points on a chart, but the two ends of a spectrum, which, as a discovery writer, I am free to move up and down on as the situation I am presently facing dictates. These days I can go through reams of paper brainstorming my way through a question before discovering I have begun writing the scene I needed to get through, at which point I will go with the flow guided by all the ideas I’ve covered during my brainstorming sessions. I don’t know if this technique actually helps me write faster, but it certainly does away with a lot of the stress I once felt when the well way dry.
First, as I commented on Substack, I am so sorry to hear about Indy! Wow. After reading there, I knew I would need to be by myself when I listened to this episode, and I was right. Just wow.
Second, I am still listening to this episode, and so I may have more to say later. But for now: yes, I am interested in “this book.” 🙂 Both of them, actually. Now, back to listening.
I love this discussion about discovery writing. I write historical mysteries, and I always know where I’m headed. But it doesn’t always work out like I planned. Since learning to outline in grade school, I’ve been resistant. When I taught writing, I often suggested a “bare bones” approach to my students. I’ll admit my “bones” are usually quite bare. Thanks for this podcast, Paul and Mark. So helpful.
Really enjoyed this episode. We, and by we I mean me, typically dream of what life might be like is we had a best seller. But the truth is, for most of us, earning four figures with our writing will make a huge difference in our lives.
PS Thanks for sharing about Indy. I wake up every day grateful that I get another day with my 14yo Border Collie.
PPS Cool “new” office.